Thanks for the intel, Sir82. As to which approach the WTS will use to keep the contents secret, I'd put my money on (B). There's not much truly "secret" material in the elder's book anyway. Most of it is simply distilled from WT articles.
Olin Moyles Ghost
JoinedPosts by Olin Moyles Ghost
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79
IT'S OFFICIAL - New Elder's Manual by end of 2010
by sir82 inper a "top secret, confidential, burn this after you read it" letter to all boes, dated march 2, 2010, but not read in our congregation until this past week:.
new "kingdom ministry" school for all elders and ministerial servants, to be held (in the us anyway) between november 2010 and january 2011.. 6 hours of jaw dropping tedium instruction for ms, 9 for elders.
ms session to be held on a sunday, elders on friday and saturday.. the "super secret surprise", for elders only: a new textbook will be released to be studied at this "school".
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Help Please- Gods prophets in Bible made mistakes like GB?
by AwSnap ini have a family member coming over tomorrow to discuss this.
it was actually brought up a long time ago, but i forgot about it.
he told me 2 days ago that he found some information that he'd researched.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Hey AwSnap,
Looks like I'm a bit late to this party. Anyway, here are my thoughts for what they're worth.
I would expect the JW to use one or more of the following:
1) The apostles didn't correctly understand "The Kingdom." They thought that Jesus was going to restore Israel to its former glory. (for example, in Acts 1:6 they asked "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time).
2) Similar to #1, some disciples thought that Jesus said that the apostle John would never die. (John 21:20-23; note that verse 23 mentions a rumor that spread among the early Christians that John would never die)
3) The prophet Nathan made a statement that could be construed as false. This is a (IMHO very weak) argument that some JW apologists use. If you read 2 Samuel 7:1-3. King David tells Nathan that he wants to build a temple for God; Nathan says go ahead, for the Lord is with you. Well, in verses 12-13, God tells Nathan to tell David that David's son (not David) will build the temple. So, some JWs argue that Nathan made an incorrect statement to David but still functioned as a true prophet of God.
Well, if you actually read the verses, Nathan didn't say that David would build the temple. He merely said, do what you want; God is with you. It's a major stretch for JWs to compare such vague, general statements with Rutherford's "indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die."
And, for all of these examples, it's important to note that there is not a shred of evidence that these folks required their fellow believers to accept their speculations as doctrine upon pain of shunning and excommunication. Rather, #1 and #2 seem like examples of the kind of rumors that pass through the congregations. To me (and anyone else who looks at it objectively), there's a huge difference between rand-and-file members passing rumors and leadership promulgating false doctrine.
Shouldn't the leadership have some responsibility and accountability? That's what gets to me. The WTS leadership are like politicians--they refuse to accept responsibility or accountability. Everything is someone else's fault. For example, when some rank-and-file members made bad decisions around 1925 or 1975, the Society blamed them for being over-eager. Never mind the fact that the WTS beat the drums and built up the false expectations. But, of course, the WTS laid the blame at the feet of the victims.
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Superior Authorities of Romans 13
by Mad Sweeney inromans 13:1,2 (nwt): "let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by god; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by god.
2 therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of god; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.".
originally the borg taught that the superior authorities were gentile governments.. later, in 1929, they taught that the superior authorities were jehovah god and his son, jesus christ.. later once again, in 1962, they taught that the superior authorities were the governments of the world.. a change is due.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
I don't think so. This is a pretty embarrassing flip-flop for the WTS. I don't see them going back to the Rutherford interpretation. And how did they explain verse 6 (about paying taxes), anyway? It seems like that makes it crystal-clear that he's referring to secular governments.
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Here's the JW answer to it all......
by palmtree67 ini was talking to a jw friend about what it was that ct russell was doing prior to 1914 that made him acceptable to jesus, over everyone else.. i mentioned the pyramids, celebration of "pagan" holidays, stealing of thoughts from other religious people, the "odd" lifestyle of russell, etc.
and i asked, "so, what was it that made ct russell more acceptable to god than anyone else at that time?".
the answer:.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
If you really want to believe something, you can come up with an explanation/rationalization for it. The WTS is not alone in this. Today, for example, there are people who can provide detailed explanations to support their positions that (1) the 1969 moon landing was a hoax; (2) 9/11/2001 was an inside job; (3) President Obama was born in Kenya; (4) dinosaurs and humans coexisted a few thousand years ago; etc...
I put JWs in the same categories as the crackpots mentioned above. They have chosen to believe a certain set of facts, and they are willing to twist reality as necessary to support those facts.
To me, it boils down to Ockham's razor. What is the simplest explanation? Applying this principle to JW doctrine (or any other fundamentalism for that matter) is typically fatal.
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Is this a contradiction or is it just the way i'm reading it?
by The Finger inin the book insight on the scriptures page 996 under the subheading popular views,.
"obviously, then, although revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been "brought from the earth" the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly lamb, christ jesus.".
this is to defeat the arguement that the 144,000 are "members of the christian congregation while on earth whereas the "great crowd" are the resurrected christians in heaven.. in the book revelation its grand climax at hand!
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Interesting catch. It does appear to be a contradiction. If I recall correctly, the Insight books and the Revelation book were released around the same time (1988/89). Of course, the bulk of the material in the Insight books is directly lifted from the old Aid book (1971), so perhaps it's some "old light" that wasn't corrected during the editing process.
In general, though, I find Revelation 14:1-4 to be a fun topic of discussion with JWs. In short, the WTS teaches that the 144,000 mentioned in verse 1 is a literal number, but in verse 3, it's symbolic (it represents the remnant on earth during the "last days"). Most JWs don't know this. If you're feeling frisky, try the following:
Me: So when the Bible mentions 144,000, that number is literal, correct?
JW: Yes.
Me: (turn to Rev. 14) So when verse 1 refers to 144,000 that is literal?
JW: Yes.
Me: and they're in heaven, right? (verse 1 says they're with the lamb on Mt. Zion)
JW: Yes, they are.
Me: Ok. How about verse 3, what is going on there?
JW: The verse says they're singing a new song before the throne and the 24 elders.
Me: Who are the 24 elders?
JW: They represent the 144,000 serving as kings and priests.
Me: So they're singing before themselves? How does that work?
JW: umm, the Revelation book says that the remnant of the 144,000 is singing in front of the already-resurrected 144,000.
Me: So, let me get this straight. In verse 1, the 144,000 is a literal number of resurrected people in heaven, but then in verse 3, the 144,000 means a much smaller number of people who are still on earth?
JW: Yes, that's what the Revelation book says.
Me: So, in other words, you believe that 144,000 in the Bible is a literal number sometimes but not always?
JW: This is pretty deep, let me do some research and get back with you...
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Have You Visited JW Facts?
by leavingwt infor newer members.
if you haven't already done so, please visit the site and have a look around.
here are a few of my favorite pages, there:.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
In my humble opinion, JWFACTS is the best WT/JW-related site out there. It's heavy on the facts and WT quotes, and devoid of vitriol and wild speculation. Very well done.
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Interesting picture from the early 1960's - Socialized Medicine in the USA
by lepermessiah inyou might have seen this before, but i was reading up on reagan this weekend........ i always admired him as a leader - i think he was the last great president in the usa.....imo.. .
ronald reagan speaks against socialized medicine!.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/file:reagan-lpcover.jpg.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Do you know what the "socialized medicine" proposal was? It was Medicare. So, I wonder if the GOP is going to be true to Reagan's principles and propose abolishing Medicare...
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2010 DC" Remain in Gods Love"...Most Unloving Yet??
by JWFreak inthe talk outlines for the summers conventions are only being printed over the next 2 weeks or so.. the finished outlines were ready in the middle of december 2009, however sources that i trust tell me that at least 5 of the talks were returned for last minute rewriting which is highly unusual.
this has held up the printing until now, a delay of over a month.
this is a fact!!.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Yadda, that's my point. It's not going to be anything new and groundbreaking. It will be the same old stuff I heard when I was growing up.
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Faders are indeed a very large doormat
by moshe insorry, to be so blunt- for a whole day i have watched people here patting themselves on the back- we're a large army, oohh, look out wt, we might do something, well not today or tomorrow, but someday!
maybe, i have to just accept that a lot of jw's who are exiting the kh by the back door will never find a backbone to stand up to mummy and elder daddy.. jw's have a learned ability to see themselves in a better light than everyone else sees them.
ask a jw, if they are a charitable religion and they would likely all say they are, but when pressed to name a charity they will be unable to do so.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Amen Undercover. Unfortunately many ex-JWs have the same judgmental, black-or-white thinking that JWs have. Fact of the matter is that it's just not that simple.
Some think that unless you're picketing out in front of District Conventions, you're "selling out" or being a coward. That's just moronic. For one thing, those idiots that picket conventions do more harm than good, in my opinion. They simply reinforce the JWs' persecution complex.
In my limited experience, simply walking away and living a quiet, fulfilling life makes a bigger impression on those still in. It rocks their world. They've been taught that those who stop believing become either (1) wild-eyed, holy-rolling, assembly-picketing apostates; (2) drug-using, wife-swapping, deadbeat hedonists; or (3) "prodigal sons/daughters" who realize the error of their ways and come back to the K. Hall.
So, when you simply live a good life and don't fit their cookie-cutter idea of an ex-JW, it causes cognitive dissonance. Sometimes it even causes them to ask questions. This is a good thing.
And, for the record, plenty of us "faders" have made it abundantly clear to our JW loved ones that we do not believe it anymore. But some of us don't feel the need to be obnoxious about it. In fact, some of us like the idea of simply moving on with our lives. As some have put it, one day I'd like to be an ex-ex-JW.
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Why is it called "Full time service"?
by no lies please ini've often wondered this during the twenty something years that i pioneered.
but it doesn't add up, literally.
seventy hours a month is only about 17.5 hours a week.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
I always thought the title "full-time service" for pioneers was silly. Now Bethelites, traveling overseers, missionaries--sure, they're "full time." But spending 70 or 90 hours per month is not full time by anyone's standards.